Almost like a Brooks? Part 3: Long-term Review of the Velo Orange Model 1 Saddle

A leather saddle—at least in theory—should last a long time, and therefore I wanted to provide an follow-up to the two previous review posts about the Velo Orange Model 1 saddle. I've now ridden the saddle for about 2.5 years and 11 000 km. It has seen all kinds of use, from all-year everyday riding around town, multi-day loaded tours, and single-day rides of up to 200km. So has my previous, positive assessment changed since the July 2012 review?

By and large: no. The main points still hold true.

In summer of 2012 the saddle was already well broken in, but it has continued to slightly change its shape. The picture on the left shows the saddle in 2012, the one on the right in its current state.

2012: Broken-in

2014: Moar broken-in

The asymmetry and “hammockiness” definitely have gotten more pronounced (even though the camera angle does distort things a bit). I haven't touched the tension screw yet and so far have no plans of doing so. The leather is still far away from the rails, the saddle is comfortable, and I'm an adherent of the school of thought that believes once you start turning the tension screw, you'll have to keep going until the saddle is dead.

The saddle rails are still going strong and I have no reason to expect them to fail any time soon. But obviously one never knows ...
The leather has aged very nicely. I try to be conscientious about covering the saddle in the rain but must admit that it has gotten wet more than once. And, ahem, I also sweat a lot in the parts that touch the saddle. After the initial treatment with Proofide I haven't done much to care for the leather, and this doesn't seem to have had any bad effects.

There are a few spots, especially near the rivets and in the place where the saddle sometimes scrapes against the wall or other objects, where the leather looks worn and I'll apply some Proofide soon. Other than that the saddle actually looks better than when it was new. The surface texture and crinkliness I pointed out in earlier reviews has turned into a mostly smooth surface, as you can see in the pictures.

2014: Pretty shiny

2012: Still a little dull

It is still not quite as shiny as my Brooks Swift and B17 Imperial, but the looks are definitely closer now than they were initially. The hammered rivets, made from stainless steel, haven't changed their appearance at all and are still flush with the leather. A minor advantage over my B17 Imperial is that the saddle is completely quiet, whereas the Brooks had phases of squeaking and clicking.

What about the arguably most important characteristic of a saddle, comfort? Once again, there are no essential changes to report. The saddle continues to be comfortable, as evidenced by my ability to do 200km day rides or multi-day tours in relative comfort. As I've remarked previously, when riding without padded bike shorts it does make a difference which underwear I'm wearing. As long as the seams are in the right spot I can do up to 60km without issues; anything above that is better done in bike shorts. The center ridge may have gotten slightly more pronounced but still doesn't bother me at all.

So to conclude, I do not regret buying the VO instead of a Brooks at all. I don't have anything negative to say about the saddle. If aesthetics are very high on your priority list, then maybe you should go for a Brooks instead. And if the center ridge negatively affects your comfort, you might want to consider going for a non-hammock saddle. Other than that you can't go wrong with the VO Model 1. Oh, there is the little problem that Velo Orange currently doesn't sell the saddle;but they have said that they “may bring it back eventually” and maybe this review will help with that.

Almost like a Brooks? Part Two: Review of Velo Orange Model 1 Saddle

Edit July 2014: Please also read part three of my review.

A couple of months ago, I posted my first impressions of the Velo Orange Model 1 and Model 3 saddles. In the meantime, I have ridden the Model 1 for over 2500 km now on rides ranging from my 5km commute to 10 hour, 160 km days on a tour from Montreal to Toronto. The Model 3 hasn't seen that kind of mileage yet and therefore I will only give an extensive perspective on the Model 1 for now.

Break-in period

Asymmetrical break-in

The break-in period of a saddle can vary widely, and the Model 1 was definitely on the lower end. Similarly to my Brooks Swift, the saddle started showing signs of breaking in right after my first 120 km ride: The leather got a little softer and you could see little dents forming where my sit bones contact the saddle. These dents have gotten bigger over time and now one can clearly see the characteristic asymmetry that's due to my scoliosis. There hasn't been any flaring of the saddle's sides and I don't expect that to happen any time soon. One thing that differentiates the Model 1 as well as the Swift from my B17 Imperial is the ridge that is beginning to form on the centerline of the saddle. I only noticed it after reading accounts of people reshaping their saddles -- with weird methods like soaking it in water! -- because of this ridge. Because of the cut-out no ridge can form on the B17 Imperial, but I must say the ridges do not bother me at all. We'll see if that's going to change should they get more prominent.

Leather quality

In her review of the Gyes-produced saddles, the author of Lovely Bike described the material of the saddles as "cardboardy." This particular term doesn't resonate with me as a good description of the material, but compared to Brooks saddles there is a noticeable difference. Both my (now broken) B17 and the Brooks Swift have completely smooth surfaces, whereas the VO's leather has a fine pattern. In addition,  Functionally, this does not make a difference: all three saddles allow to easily slide around on them. Aesthetically I have a preference for the Brooks look -- but aesthetics are low on my list of criteria for choosing a saddle. The thickness of the leather is about the same as on my Brooks saddles: between 4.5 and 5.5mm (this is difficult to measure, though, and the thickness varies on different parts of the saddle).The sides of the saddle are chamfered, just like with the narrower Brooks models.

Slightly crinkly leather near the sit bone dents

Rails

One reason for buying the VO saddle was that I hoped its rails would be less prone to breaking than that of my B17. Brooks rails have a diameter of about 6.8mm (I'm assuming that's 17/64 inches), whereas the VO has 7mm rails. A difference of 0.2 mm (or 3%) does not sound like much and I have no idea how much of an difference it makes for longevity. The rails are chrome plated which some have claimed is not only environmentally problematic but also not good for strenght. I don't have the expertise to evaluate these claims.
Another aspect of Brooks saddles frequently criticized is the limited range for adjusting the saddles fore-aft position. My Swift offers about 70mm of adjustment, compared to 80mm on the VO.

Lots of room for adjustment

Rivets

The looks of the Model 1's rivets are right in between my B17 and the Swift: The B17 sported the small diameter (8.75mm) nickel-plated steel rivets and the Swift has the nice, big hammered copper rivets with 13mm diameter. The Model 1 rivets have a diameter of 12mm, are hammered and made from stainless steel (according to a webshop selling other Gyes saddles).

Comfort

Comfort for most is probably the most important factor in choosing a saddle. At the same time it is the most difficult one to describe and also highly dependent on the rider. Personally, I am very satisfied with the comfort of the Model 1: On my tour from Montreal to Toronto I rode it on several consecutive 150km days without any issues. In commuter mode, I have noticed that the saddle is a bit more sensitive to the choice of underwear: with the B17 Imperial this was not an issue and I could easily do 60km rides in street clothes. With the Model 1, on the other hand, it sometimes happens that my clothes have a seam in the wrong spot, causing discomfort on longer rides around town. I suspect that this is mostly due to the narrower shape of the saddle, and that I would have similar issues with the Brooks Swift if I ever rode on it in everyday clothes.

Conclusion

My ultimate verdict will very much depend on how long the VO saddle will make it. If it'll last longer than my B17 I would fully recommend the saddle, if it lasts the same amount of time I'd say: go for the Model 1 unless aesthetics are high on your agenda. VO appears to have regular 60 dollar sales of the saddle and at that price Brooks doesn't seem like a great deal.

Edit July 2014: Please also read part three of my review.

Broken Brooks B17: The Continuation

My Brooks is still broken, but there have been a few noteworthy developments. After posting about my plight on German radreise-forum.de and on this blog, I have received some useful feedback. A commenter here pointed out that Brooks has an "official" repair person in Philadelphia and that I should contact the US Brooks distributor, Highway Two, to get the repair shop's contact info. Unfortunately, they didn't reply to my email. I then contacted Brooks directly and within a couple of minutes they replied:

There is a man called Simon Firth who runs Hanford Cycles in Philadelphia who was trained here at the factory in Smethwick so he should be more than capable of repairing it for you. His email addresses are: hanfordcycles@gmail.com or brooksrepair1@gmail.com.

The second email address is no longer in use but after sending a message to Hanford Cycles I quickly got a response from Simon Firth. Repairing my B17 would cost 36 dollars for parts, 35 for labor and about 10 for shipping, totaling at 81 dollars. Plus the cost for me to ship the broken saddle to Philly and the ever-looming Canadian custom fees and taxes. Now I by no means think that these charges are too high (an online friend from Germany told me that he was quoted a total of 60 Euros for a repair directly at Brooks); however, I had bought the B17 for 90-something dollars shipped. So I don't think I'll have the saddle professionally fixed.

At the same time, I really don't want to throw out a piece that has served me so well and is in principle repairable. As a result I will attempt a repair myself. As mentioned before, Brooks sells all the necessary spare parts (i.e. the frame plus rivets) and their shipping charges to Canada are reasonable. Another online friend directed me at this very detailed how-to and the process seems to be doable. Some more advice and pictures can be found here. It's all in German but the pictures should be helpful. I'll order the spare parts soon and will report on the repair.

In the meantime, I have replaced the Brooks with the Velo Orange Model 1 and after the first 120km ride I'm pretty happy with it. But more on that in another post.

Almost like a Brooks? First Impression of the Velo Orange Leather Saddles Model 1 and Model 3

Update July 2012: Please also read my recent review of the Model 1.
 
After my recent Brooks mishap I decided to try something new. Velo Orange, one of the brands that sells leather saddles made by Taiwanese company Gyes, had a sale on two of their models, their "Model 3" being a copy of the Brooks B17 touring saddle, and "Model 1" a copy of the Brook Team Professional, which is somewhere in between a touring and a road racing saddle. It would be hard not to compare the VO offerings with their Brooks counterparts, and since I have a good deal of experience with Brooks products, that's what I'll do.

Velo Orange Model 1 (left) and Model 3 (right)

First, let's talk about cost. Shipping to Canada was 17 Dollars and unfortunately I also got hit with sales tax and processing fees (it's pretty unpredictable when you have to pay sales tax and when you don't). So the overall cost for both saddles was 60 + 65 + 17 + 25 USD, coming out to 83.50 per saddle. On Amazon.com, a real B17 currently sells for 107 USD and a Team Pro starts at 135 USD, both including shipping to the US. With some research it might be possible to get them for slightly less (e.g. buying from a European webshop), but the Velo Orange saddles are definitely still going to be cheaper, even at their regular price of 85 and 90 dollars.

"Aged" leather of the Model 3. Not the binding in the middle of the saddle

On first view, the saddles look pretty similar to their Brooks inspiration, but there are a number of differences. For the Model 3, the most obvious one is the leather itself: whereas the regular Brooks features smooth leather, the VO saddle's surface resembles more that of the Brooks "Aged" models. The "aged" leather is supposed to break in more quickly--but consequently will also stretch and wear more rapidly. VO doesn't say anything in particular about the Model 3's leather and the leather still feels pretty stiff and hard. The Model 1, on the other hand, has a smooth surface that looks a little more dull than a real Brooks. But I'm suspecting that might change after the application of Proofide and some polishing/riding.

Model 1. A little dull.

From below, both saddles look quite different from a Brooks: instead of leather you see some kind of textile layered over the leather's surface. I guess this is for protecting the saddles from road spray, something that I don't have to care about because of my fenders. Another obvious difference between the Model 3 and a B17 is that the former is bound with two holes in the middle of the saddle. This prevents the sides of the saddle from flaring and it will also make the saddle a bit harder (depending on how tightly you bind it). Compared to a standard B17, Model 3's rivets are bigger. I'm not sure what they're made out of but it's not the copper of the more expensive Brooks saddles. Finally, in contrast to the Team Pro, Model 1 has bag loops, a feature that is pretty important to me and that made me buy a Swallow instead of the Team Pro for my road bike. 

Here you can see the textile underlayer

Underside of the Model 1

One less obvious difference are the saddle rails. I've complained about the sub-standard strength of Brooks rails (somewhere in the 6.6 to 6.7mm range) and fortunately the VO saddles feature wider rails. My calipers are out of battery at the moment, but it looks like the rails are at least 7mm wide. This will hopefully prevent the rails from breaking--but might also make the ride slightly harsher. Another frequent criticism of Brooks saddles is their limited fore-aft adjustability. Because Brooks saddles were developed in the age of slacker seat tube angles and haven't changed since then, some people have problems getting the saddle as far back as they would like to. I haven't measured the rails yet, but VO says theirs offer 10mm more space. (If you want even more range you should have a look at Selle AnAtomica saddles).

Model 1 next to a Brooks Swallow

Another less obvious difference is weight: On my kitchen scale, the Model 1 came in at 541g (claimed weight 520g) and the Model 5 was 646g (vs 665g claimed). This makes a tie between Model 1 and a Team Pro (claimed weight 520g), but quite a difference between Model 3 and the claimed 520g of a B17.

I think this is all I can say for now, but updates will follow once the saddles are in use.
Update July 2012: Extensive review of the Model 1

Broken Brooks B17

Update March 15: I've written up some repair-related information in this post.

Last weekend, I did my first long (i.e. over 100km) ride of the year. The weather was alright at 3°C and some sun with clouds and I had a very nice ride out to the L'Île Perrot. Not so nice was the fact that about 85 km into the ride my Brooks B17 Imperial saddle broke: I heard a quick cracking sound and immediately knew that it had to the failure that I had been afraid of for a long time: one of the rails broke, right behind the clamp.

Brooks B17 Imperial: Still in good shape

This problem is widely known, as is the fact that Brooks claims that it's not their fault (and Grant Petersen agrees). Saddles with the tension too low, mounted too far back, or malicious clamping mechanisms supposedly cause the issue, but that seems to be only part of the story. For one, Brooks saddle rails are slightly thinner than standard rails, according to an article in the German bike magazine Fahrradzukunft, resulting in a significant reduction of strength. Due to their hammock principle --  you sit on a piece of leather that is only connected to the frame at the nose and the rear -- presumably a Brooks creates higher stresses on the frame. And it's easy to see how higher stresses plus weaker rails can in some cases lead to breakage. Of course, it is impossible to tell how frequently Brooks rails break. The company itself probably has a good estimate of it, but is not making any figures public. However, on the internet you come across a fairly large number of incident reports. (It's important to keep in mind that Brooks saddles are pretty popular and therefore the number of incidents has to be put into the context of the large number of Brookses produced.)

Just a little asymmetrical...

My saddle had been ridden for approximately 10 000 km and my weight is somewhere around 85 kg. I think it's unacceptable for a saddle to fail after only such a short period of use -- at my current annual mileage I'd have to buy a new saddle for well over 100 dollars every two years! Some people might say, "well, then why don't you just get a nice saddle from a different manufacturer?" Unfortunately, it's not that easy: first, I do need a leather saddle. Despite being vegan and having some weight-weenie tendencies, I can't really give up on leather in this case: I have a slight scoliosis, resulting in me sitting on the bike crookedly. My leather saddles can adapt to that while plastic saddles can't. Second, while Brooks is not the only manufacturer of leather saddles the number of alternatives is limited and they all have their drawbacks, too:

• Selle An-Atomica: reportedly, the saddles are very comfortable, but the leather stretches very fast. In addition, they carry a hefty price tag of over 200 dollars shipped.
• Gilles Berthoud offers a range of nice leather saddles and apparently they can be easily repaired at home. Presumably due to their hefty price tag, they are not very common and it's therefore difficult to find reviews. 
• Velo Orange sells a range of Brooks knock-offs. They're certainly cheap, but who knows long they will last.

So I'm not really sure what to do. I feel very reluctant to spend money on yet another Brooks, especially since breaking rails are not the only problem one can have with a Brooks (my father-in-law, for example, has a B17 that absolutely does not break in).  For now, I have fixed the saddle by using the advice from the Fahrradzukunft article mentioned above: move the saddle forward, so that the broken part is covered by the clamp, and then tighten the clamp bolt to 25 Nm. We'll see how long that is going to last and how long I'll be willing to put up with the less than ideal saddle position.

Repairing the saddle is another option. Since prior to the defect I was very happy with the B17 Imperial and the leather is probably good for at least another 10 000 km, it would be nice to repair the saddle. While Brooks offers all the necessary spare parts, unsprung saddles like the B17 require you to re-rivet the saddle onto the frame. This is pretty tricky and Brooks recommends to have it done by a professional. Which, of course, is pretty expensive. I haven't talked to any of the local Brooks "dealers of excellence" in Montreal yet, but what I've found online is not that promising: at this place, the cost would be over 100 dollars, and I imagine other places will charge a similar amount.

After the temporary repair

So I'm not sure what to do yet, but I'll keep you updated. If you have experience with Brooks saddles breaking or being repaired, please comment.

Gunnar

Finally the weather has been nice enough for me to take out Gunnar for a couple of rides. After a short loop through the city and a ride to the FLCC spring seminar two Sundays ago, yesterday I took Gunnar on a real test ride, out to Taughannock and back on Route 89. And Gunnar rides like a charm. I pushed it pretty hard and averaged at 30.7 km/h for the out-of-town portion of the ride. I think the geometry works pretty well for me, but I will keep tinkering with it: saddle height is maybe still a bit too low, but the current seat post is already at its max. And if I have to get a new seat post anyway, I might get one with a different set-back. Currently my KOPS (knee over pedal spindle) position is about 6 cm behind the spindle and my saddle is as far forward as possible. I'm well aware that several cycling gurus are rather skeptical of the KOPS method and their arguments are making a lot of sense to me. But given that my saddle is at the margin of adjustability, a zero-setback post would give me more options to tinker with my position. Probably I should just ask Glenn for advice. Handlebar height might get readjusted downwards, too. At the moment my posture is fairly aggressive, but I think I could drop a spacer or two and still be comfortable.

I'll go for another ride with another German guy today and we'll see how Gunnar feels after 2 or 2.5 hours. I definitely expect my behind to hurt, as the Selle Italia Flite Gel Flow (I have the one without titanium rails) saddle is just too tiny. My knees might also be a trouble spot, as I messed them up a bit yesterday, courtesy of a downward sliding seat post...

I also shot some outside pictures of Gunnar. I hope you'll enjoy:



Odo Wolfgang: 3924 km
Odo Gunnar: 991 km (point zero is at 954 km)

Wolfgang with the new Brooks

I just remembered that I still haven't posted any pictures of Wolfgang with the new Brooks saddle. Well, here it is. As noted previously, so far it has been pretty comfortable but it's definitely not broken in yet. From looking at the picture, I'll probably change the angle of the saddle by a bit and put the nose further down. Common knowledge has it that Brooks saddles need to be angled up a little, but my current set-up might be a bit too much.

Shameless self-promotion

Need new brakes? A new saddle or two? Then check out my current e-bay auctions. You'll get a 5 % discount (shipping not included) if you mention that you found the auction through this blog.

SDG Comp Road Bike Saddle

WTB Speed She Comp Women's Saddle

Velo Plush Road Bike Cyclocross Saddle

Tektro Oryx Cantilever Brake 992AG Cyclocross

Tektro Oryx Cantilever Brake 992AG Cyclocross

Brooks got here!

Okay, my Brooks Imperial B17 finally got here. Of course, I couldn't wait even until after grocery shopping to install it on Wolfgang. Very first impression: it has a very defined seating position. In contrast to my other saddles where you switch between different position without them feeling clearly wrong, with the Brooks you really feel where you're supposed to sit. This position is, obviously, still a bit hard at the moment, but I'm optimistic that I'll indeed like the saddle once it's broken in. Pictures will follow shortly.

Odo Wolfgang: 3232 km